he fire. He set
his teeth and started to climb, finding the holds by touch. The stick that
had supported a skull hampered him but he would not be parted from his only
weapon. He was nearly level with the twins before he spoke again.
"Samneric-"
He heard a cry and a flurry from the rock. The twins had grabbed each
other and were gibbering.
"It's me. Ralph."
Terrified that they would run and give the alarm, he hauled himself up
until his head and shoulders stuck over the top. Far below his armpit he saw
the luminous flowering round the rock.
"It's only me. Ralph."
At length they bent forward and peered in his face.
"We thought it was-"
"-we didn't know what it was-"
"-we thought-"
Memory of their new and shameful loyalty came to them. Eric was silent
but Sam tried to do his duty.
"You got to go, Ralph. You go away now-"
He wagged his spear and essayed fierceness.
"You shove off. See?"
Eric nodded agreement and jabbed his spear in the air. Ralph leaned on
his arms and did not go.
"I came to see you two."
His voice was thick. His throat was hurting him now though it had
received no wound.
"I came to see you two-"
Words could not express the dull pain of these things. He fell silent,
while the vivid stars were spilt and danced all ways.
Sam shifted uneasily.
"Honest, Ralph, you'd better go."
Ralph looked up again.
"You two aren't painted. How can you-? If it were light-"
If it were light shame would burn them at admitting these things. But
the night was dark. Eric took up; and then the twins started their
antiphonal speech.
"You got to go because it's not safe-"
"-they made us. They hurt us-"
"Who? Jack?"
"Oh no-"
They bent to him and lowered their voices.
"Push off, Ralph-'
"-it's a tribe-"
"-they made us-"
"-we couldn't help it-"
When Ralph spoke again his voice was low, and seemed breathless.
"What have I done? I liked him-and I wanted us to be rescued-"
Again the stars spilled about the sky. Eric shook his head, earnestly.
"Listen, Ralph. Never mind what's sense. That's gone-"
"Never mind about the chief-"
"-you got to go for your own good."
"The chief and Roger-"
"-yes, Roger-"
"They hate you, Ralph. They're going to do you."
"They're going to hunt you tomorrow."
"But why?"
"I dunno. And Ralph, Jack, the chief, says it'll be dangerous-"
"-and we've got to be careful and throw our spears like at a pig."
"We're going to spread out in a line across the island-"
"-we're going forward from this end-"
"-until we find you."
"We've got to give signals like this."
Eric raised his head and achieved a faint ululation by beating on his
open mouth. Then he glanced behind him nervously.
"Like that-"
"-only louder, of course."
"But I've done nothing," whispered Ralph, urgently. I only wanted to
keep up a fire!"
He paused for a moment, thinking miserably of the morrow. A matter of
overwhelming importance occurred to him.
"What are you-?"
He could not bring himself to be specific at first; but then fear and
loneliness goaded him.
"When they find me, what are they going to do?" The twins were silent.
Beneath him, the death rock flowered again.
"What are they-oh God! I'm hungry-"
The towering rock seemed to sway under him.
"Well-what-?"
The twins answered his question indirectly.
"You got to go now, Ralph."
"For your own good."
"Keep away. As far as you can."
"Won't you come with me? Three of us-we'd stand a chance.".
After a moment's silence, Sam spoke in a strangled voice.
"You don't know Roger. He's a terror."
"And the chief-they're both-"
"-terrors-"
"-only Roger-"
Both boys froze. Someone was climbing toward them from the tribe.
"He's coming to see if we're keeping watch. Quick, Ralph!"
As he prepared to let himself down the cliff, Ralph snatched at the
last possible advantage to be wrung out of this meeting.
"I'll lie up close; in that thicket down there," he whispered, "so keep
them away from it. They'll never think to took so close-"
The footsteps were still some distance away.
"Sam-I'm going to be all right, aren't I?"
The twins were silent again.
"Here!" said Sam suddenly. "Take this-"
Ralph felt a chunk of meat pushed against him and grabbed it.
"But what are you going to do when you catch me?"
Silence above. He sounded silly to himself. He lowered himself down the
rock.
"What are you going to do-?"
From the top of the towering rock came the incomprehensible reply.
"Roger sharpened a stick at both ends."
Roger sharpened a stick at both ends. Ralph tried to attach a meaning
to this but could not. He used all the bad words he could think of in a fit
of temper that passed into yawning. How long could you go without sleep? He
yearned for a bed and sheets-but the only whiteness here was the slow spilt
milk, luminous round the rock forty feet below, where Piggy had fallen.
Piggy was everywhere, was on this neck, was become terrible in darkness and
death. If Piggy were to come back now out of the water, with his empty
head-Ralph whimpered and yawned like a littlun. The stick in his hand became
a crutch on which he reeled.
Then he tensed again. There were voices raised on the top of the Castle
Rock. Samneric were arguing with someone. But the ferns and the grass were
near. That was the place to be in, hidden, and next to the thicket that
would serve for tomorrow's hide-out. Here-and his hands touched grass-was a
place to be in for the night, not far from the tribe, so that if the horrors
of the supernatural emerged one could at least mix with humans for the time
being, even if it meant . . .
What did it mean? A stick sharpened at both ends. What was there in
that? They had thrown spears and missed; all but one. Perhaps they would
miss next time, too.
He squatted down in the tall grass, remembered the meat that Sam had
given him, and began to tear at it ravenously. While he was eating, he heard
fresh noises-cries of pain from Samneric, cries of panic, angry voices. What
did it mean? Someone besides himself was in trouble, for at least one of the
twins was catching it. Then the voices passed away down the rock and he
ceased to think of them. He felt with his hands and found cool, delicate
fronds backed against the thicket. Here then was the night's lair. At first
light he would creep into the thicket, squeeze between the twisted stems,
ensconce himself so deep that only a crawler like himself could come
through, and that crawler would be jabbed. There he would sit, and the
search would pass him by, and the cordon waver on, ululating along the
island, and he would be free.
He pulled himself between the ferns, tunneling in. He laid the stick
beside him, and huddled himself down in the blackness. One must remember to
wake at first light, in order to diddle the savages-and he did not know how
quickly sleep came and hurled him down a dark interior slope.
He was awake before his eyes were open, listening to a noise that was
near. He opened an eye, found the mold an inch or so from his face and his
fingers gripped into it, light filtering between the fronds of fern. He had
just time to realize that the age-long nightmares of falling and death were
past and that the morning was come, when he heard the sound again.' It was
an ululation over by the seashore -and now the next savage answered and the
next. The cry swept by him across the narrow end of the island from sea to
lagoon, like the cry of a flying bird. He took no time to consider but
grabbed his sharp stick and wriggled back among the ferns. Within seconds he
was worming his way into the thicket; but not before he had glimpsed the
legs of a savage coming toward him. The ferns were thumped and beaten and he
heard legs moving in the long grass. The savage, whoever he was, ululated
twice; and the cry was repeated in both directions, then died away. Ralph
crouched still, tangled in the ferns, and for a time he heard nothing.
At last he examined the thicket itself. Certainly no one could attack
him here-and moreover he had a stroke of luck. The great rock that had
killed Piggy had bounded into this thicket and bounced there, right in the
center, making a smashed space a few feet in extent each way. When Ralph had
wriggled into this he felt secure, and clever. He sat down carefully among
the smashed stems and waited for the hunt to pass. Looking up between the
leaves he caught a glimpse of something red. That must be the top of the
Castle Rock, distant and unmenacing. He composed himself triumphantly, to
hear the sounds of the hunt dying away.
Yet no one made a sound; and as the minutes passed, in the green shade,
his feeling of triumph faded.
At last he heard a voice-Jack's voice, but hushed.
"Are you certain?"
The savage addressed said nothing. Perhaps he made a gesture.
Roger spoke.
"If you're fooling us-"
Immediately after this, there came a gasp, and a squeal of pain. Ralph
crouched instinctively. One of the twins was there, outside the thicket,
with Jack and Roger.
"You're sure he meant in there?"
The twin moaned faintly and then squealed again.
"He meant he'd hide in there?"
"Yes-yes-oh-!"
Silvery laughter scattered among the trees.
So they knew.
Ralph picked up his stick and prepared for battle. But what could they
do? It would take them a week to break a path through the thicket; and
anyone who wormed his way in would be helpless. He felt the point of his
spear with his thumb and grinned without amusement Whoever tried that would
be stuck, squealing like a pig.
They were going away, back to the tower rock. He could hear feet moving
and then someone sniggered. There came again that high, bird-like cry that
swept along the line, So some were still watching for him; but some-?
There was a long, breathless silence. Ralph found that he had bark in
his mouth from the gnawed spear. He stood and peered upwards to the Castle
Rock.
As he did so, he heard Jack's voice from the top.
"Heave! Heave! Heave!"
The red rock that he could see at the top of the cliff vanished like a
curtain, and he could see figures and blue sky. A moment later the earth
jolted, there was a rushing sound in the air, and the top of the thicket was
cuffed as with a gigantic hand. The rock bounded on, thumping and smashing
toward the beach, while a shower of broken twigs and leaves fell on him.
Beyond the thicket, the tribe was cheering.
Silence again.
Ralph put his fingers in his mouth and bit them. There was only one
other rock up there that they might conceivably move; but that was half as
big as a cottage, big as a car, a tank. He visualized its probable progress
with agonizing clearness-that one would start slowly, drop from ledge to
ledge, trundle across the neck like an outsize steam roller.
"Heave! Heave! Heave!"
Ralph put down his spear, then picked it up again. He pushed his hair
back irritably, took two hasty steps across the little space and then came
back. He stood looking at the broken ends of branches.
Still silence.
He caught sight of the rise and fall of his diaphragm and was surprised
to see how quickly he was breathing. Just left of center his heart-beats
were visible. He put the spear down again.
"Heave! Heave! Heave!"
A shrill, prolonged cheer.
Something boomed up on the red rock, then the earth jumped and began to
shake steadily, while the noise as steadily increased. Ralph was shot into
the air, thrown down, dashed against branches. At his right hand, and only a
few feet away, the whole thicket bent and the roots screamed as they came
out of the earth together. He saw something red that turned over slowly as a
mill wheel. Then the red thing was past and the elephantine progress
diminished toward the sea.
Ralph knelt on the plowed-up soil, and waited for the earth to come
back. Presently the white, broken stumps, the split sticks and the tangle of
the thicket refocused. There was a kind of heavy feeling in his body where
he had watched his own pulse.
Silence again.
Yet not entirely so. They were whispering out there; and suddenly the
branches were shaken furiously at two places on his right. The pointed end
of a stick appeared. In panic, Ralph thrust his own stick through the crack
and struck with all his might.
"Aaa-ah!"
His spear twisted a little in his hands and then he withdrew it again.
"Ooh-ooh-"
Someone was moaning outside and a babble of voices rose. A fierce
argument was going on and the wounded savage kept groaning. Then when there
was silence, a single voice spoke and Ralph decided that it was not Jack's.
"See? I told you-he's dangerous."
The wounded savage moaned again.
What else? What next?
Ralph fastened his hands round the chewed spear and his hair fell.
Someone was muttering, only a few yards away toward the Castle Rock. He
heard a savage say "No!" in a shocked voice; and then there was suppressed
laughter. He squatted back on his heels and showed his teeth at the wall of
branches. He raised his spear, snarled a little, and waited.
Once more the invisible group sniggered. He heard a curious trickling
sound and then a louder crepitation as if someone were unwrapping great
sheets of cellophane. A stick snapped and he stifled a cough. Smoke was
seeping through the branches in white and yellow wisps, the patch of blue
sky overhead turned to the color of a storm cloud, and then the smoke
billowed round him.
Someone laughed excitedly, and a voice shouted.
"Smoke!"
He wormed his way through the thicket toward the forest, keeping as far
as possible beneath the smoke. Presently he saw open space, and the green
leaves of the edge of the thicket. A smallish savage was standing between
him and the rest of the forest, a savage striped red and white, and carrying
a spear. He was coughing and smearing the paint about his eyes with the back
of his hand as he tried to see through the increasing smoke. Ralph launched
himself like a cat; stabbed, snarling, with the spear, and the savage
doubled up. There was a shout from beyond the thicket and then Ralph was
running with the swiftness of fear through the undergrowth. He came to a
pig-run, followed it for perhaps a hundred yards, and then swerved off.
Behind him the ululation swept across the island once more and a single
voice shouted three times. He guessed that was the signal to advance and
sped away again, till his chest was like fire. Then he flung himself down
under a bush and waited for a moment till his breathing steadied. He passed
his tongue tentatively over his teeth and lips and heard far off the
ululation of the pursuers.
There were many things he could do. He could climb a tree; but that was
putting all his eggs in one basket. If he were detected, they had nothing
more difficult to do than wait.
If only one had time to think!
Another double cry at the same distance gave him a clue to their plan.
Any savage balked in the forest would utter the double shout and hold up the
line till he was free again. That way they might hope to keep the cordon
unbroken right across the island. Ralph thought of the boar that had broken
through them with such ease. If necessary, when the chase came too close, he
could charge the cordon while it was still thin, burst through, and run
back. But run back where? The cordon would turn and sweep again. Sooner or
later he would have to sleep or eat-and then he would awaken with hands
clawing at him; and the hunt would become a running down.
What was to be done, then? The tree? Burst the line like a boar? Either
way the choice was terrible.
A single cry quickened his heart-beat and, leaping up, be dashed away
toward the ocean side and the thick jungle till he was hung up among
creepers; he stayed there for a moment with his calves quivering. If only
one could have quiet, a long pause, a time to think!
And there again, shrill and inevitable, was the ululation sweeping
across the island. At that sound he shied like a horse among the creepers
and ran once more till he was panting. He flung himself down by some ferns.
The tree, or the charge? He mastered his breathing for a moment, wiped his
mouth, and told himself to be calm. Samneric were somewhere in that line,
and hating it. Or were they? And supposing, instead of them, he met the
chief, or Roger who carried death in his hands?
Ralph pushed back his tangled hair and wiped the sweat out of his best
eye. He spoke aloud.
"Think."
What was the sensible thing to do?
There was no Piggy to talk sense. There was no solemn assembly for
debate nor dignity of the conch.
"Think."
Most, he was beginning to dread the curtain that might waver in his
brain, blacking out the sense of danger, making a simpleton of him.
A third idea would be to hide so well that the advancing line would
pass without discovering him.
He jerked his head off the ground and listened. There was another noise
to attend to now, a deep grumbling noise, as though the forest itself were
angry with him, a somber noise across which the ululations were scribbled
excruciatingly as on slate. He knew he had heard it before somewhere, but
had no time to remember.
Break the line.
A tree.
Hide, and let them pass.
A nearer cry stood him on his feet and immediately he was away again,
running fast among thorns and brambles. Suddenly he blundered into the open,
found himself again in that open space-and there was the fathom-wide grin of
the skull, no longer ridiculing a deep blue patch of sky but jeering up into
a blanket of smoke. Then Ralph was running beneath trees, with the grumble
of the forest explained. They had smoked him out and set the island on fire.
Hide was better than a tree because you had a chance of breaking the
line if you were discovered.
Hide, then.
He wondered it a pig would agree, and grimaced at nothing. Find the
deepest thicket, the darkest hole on the island, and creep in. Now, as he
ran, he peered about him. Bars and splashes of sunlight flitted over him and
sweat made glistening streaks on his dirty body. The cries were far now, and
faint.
At last he found what seemed to him the right place, though the
decision was desperate. Here, bushes and a wild tangle of creeper made a mat
that kept out all the light of the sun. Beneath it was a space, perhaps a
foot high, though it was pierced everywhere by parallel and rising stems. If
you wormed into the middle of that you would be five yards from the edge,
and hidden, unless the savage chose to lie down and look for you; and even
then, you would be in darkness-and if the worst happened and he saw you,
then you had a chance to burst out at him, fling the whole line out of step
and double back.
Cautiously, his stick trailing behind him, Ralph wormed between the
rising stems. When he reached the middle of the mat he lay and listened.
The fire was a big one and the drum-roll that he had thought was left
so far behind was nearer. Couldn't a fire outrun a galloping horse? He could
see the sun-splashed ground over an area of perhaps fifty yards from where
he lay, and as he watched, the sunlight in every patch blinked at him. This
was so like the curtain that flapped in his brain that for a moment he
thought the blinking was inside him. But then the patches blinked more
rapidly, dulled and went out, so that he saw that a great heaviness of smoke
lay between the island and the sun.
If anyone peered under the bushes and chanced to glimpse human flesh it
might be Samneric who would pretend not to see and say nothing. He laid his
cheek against the chocolate-colored earth, licked his dry lips and closed
his eyes. Under the thicket, the earth was vibrating very slightly; or
perhaps there was a sound beneath the obvious thunder of the fire and
scribbled ululations that was too low to hear.
Someone cried out. Ralph jerked his cheek off the earth and looked into
the dulled light. They must be near now, he thought, and his chest began to
thump. Hide, break the line, climb a tree-which was the best after all? The
trouble was you only had one chance.
Now the fire was nearer; those volleying shots were great limbs, trunks
even, bursting. The fools! The fools! The fire must be almost at the fruit
trees-what would they eat tomorrow?
Ralph stirred restlessly in his narrow bed. One chanced nothing! What
could they do? Beat him? So what? Kill him? A stick sharpened at both ends.
The cries, suddenly nearer, jerked him up. He could see a striped
savage moving hastily out of a green tangle, and coming toward the mat where
he hid, a savage who carried a spear. Ralph gripped his fingers into the
earth. Be ready now, in case.
Ralph fumbled to hold his spear so that it was point foremost; and now
he saw that the stick was sharpened at both ends.
The savage stopped fifteen yards away and uttered his cry.
Perhaps he can hear my heart over the noises of the fire. Don't scream.
Get ready.
The savage moved forward so that you could only see him from the waist
down. That was the butt of his spear. Now you could see him from the knee
down. Don't scream. A herd of pigs came squealing out of the greenery behind
the savage and rushed away into the forest. Birds were screaming, mice
shrieking, and a little hopping thing came under the mat and cowered.
Five yards away the savage stopped, standing right by the thicket, and
cried out. Ralph drew his feet up and crouched. The stake was in his hands,
the stake sharpened at both ends, the stake that vibrated so wildly, that
grew long, short, light, heavy, light again.
The ululation spread from shore to shore. The savage knelt down by the
edge of the thicket, and there were lights flickering in the forest behind
him. You could see a knee disturb the mold. Now the other. Two hands. A
spear.
A face.
The savage peered into the obscurity beneath the thicket. You could
tell that he saw light on this side and on that, but not in the
middle-there. In the middle was a blob of dark and the savage wrinkled up
his face, trying to decipher the darkness.
The seconds lengthened Ralph was looking straight into the savage's
eyes.
Don't scream.
You'll get back.
Now he's seen you. He's making sure. A stick sharpened.
Ralph screamed, a scream of fright and anger and desperation. His legs
straightened, the screams became continuous and foaming. He shot forward,
burst the thicket, was in the open, screaming, snarling, bloody. He swung
the stake and the savage tumbled over; but there were others coming toward
him, crying out. He swerved as a spear flew past and then was silent,
running. All at once the lights flickering ahead of him merged together, the
roar of the forest rose to thunder and a tall bush directly in his path
burst into a great fan-shaped flame. He swung to the right, running
desperately fast, with the heat beating on his left side and the fire racing
forward like a tide. The ululation rose behind him and spread along, a
series of short sharp cries, the sighting call. A brown figure showed up at
his right and fell away. They were all running, all crying out madly. He
could hear them crashing in the undergrowth and on the left was the hot,
bright thunder of the fire. He forgot his wounds, his hunger and thirst, and
became fear; hopeless fear on flying feet, rushing through the forest toward
the open beach. Spots jumped before his eyes and turned into red circles
that expanded quickly till they passed out of sight. Below him someone's
legs were getting tired and the desperate ululation advanced like a jagged
fringe of menace and was almost overhead.
He stumbled over a root and the cry that pursued him rose even higher.
He saw a shelter burst into flames and the fire flapped at his right
shoulder and there was the glitter of water. Then he was down, rolling over
and over in the warm sand, crouching with arm up to ward off, trying to cry
for mercy.
He staggered to his feet, tensed for more terrors, and looked up at a
huge peaked cap. It was a white-topped cap, and above the green shade or the
peak was a crown, an anchor, gold foliage. He saw white drill, epaulettes, a
revolver, a row of gilt buttons down the front of a uniform.
A naval officer stood on the sand, looking down at Ralph in wary
astonishment. On the beach behind him was a cutter, her bows hauled up and
held by two ratings. In the stern-sheets another rating held a sub-machine
gun.
The ululation faltered and died away.
The officer looked at Ralph doubtfully for a moment, then took his hand
away from the butt of the revolver.
"Hullo."
Squirming a little, conscious of his filthy appearance, Ralph answered
shyly.
"Hullo."
The officer nodded, as if a question had been answered.
"Are there any adults-any grownups with you?"
Dumbly, Ralph shook his head. He turned a half-pace on the sand. A
semicircle of little boys, their bodies streaked with colored clay, sharp
sticks in their hands, were standing on the beach making no noise at all.
"Fun and games," said the officer.
The fire reached the coconut palms by the beach and swallowed them
noisily. A flame, seemingly detached, swung like an acrobat and licked up
the palm heads on the platfonn. The sky was black.
The officer grinned cheerfully at Ralph.
"We saw your smoke. What have you been doing? Having a war or
something?"
Ralph nodded.
The officer inspected the little scarecrow in front of him. The kid
needed a bath, a haircut, a nose-wipe and a good deal of ointment.
"Nobody killed, I hope? Any dead bodies?"
"Only two. And they've gone."
The officer leaned down and looked closely at Ralph.
"Two? Killed?"
Ralph nodded again. Behind him, the whole island was shuddering with
flame. The officer knew, as a rule, when people were telling the truth. He
whistled softly.
Other boys were appearing now, tiny tots some of them, brown, with the
distended bellies of small savages. One of them came dose to the officer and
looked up.
"I'm, I'm-"
But there was no more to come. Percival Wemys Madison sought in his
head for an incantation that had faded clean away.
The officer turned back to Ralph.
"We'll take you off. How many of you are there?"
Ralph shook his head. The officer looked past him to the group of
painted boys.
"Who's boss here?"
"I am," said Ralph loudly.
A little boy who wore the remains of an extraordinary black cap on his
red hair and who carried the remains of a pair of spectacles at his waist,
started forward, then changed his mind and stood still.
"We saw your smoke. And you don't know how many of you there are?"
"No, sir."
"I should have thought," said the officer as he visualized the search
before him, "I should have thought that a pack of British boys-you're all
British, aren't you?-would have been able to put up a better show than
that-I mean-"
"It was like that at first," said Ralph, "before things-"
He stopped.
"We were together then-"
The officer nodded helpfully.
"I know. Jolly good show. Like the Coral Island."
Ralph looked at him dumbly. For a moment he had a fleeting picture of
the strange glamour that had once invested the beaches. But the island was
scorched up like dead wood-Simon was dead-and Jack had. . . . The tears
began to flow and sobs shook him. He gave himself up to them now for the
first time on the island; great, shuddering spasms of grief that seemed to
wrench his whole body. His voice rose under the black smoke before the
burning wreckage of the island; and infected by that emotion, the other
little boys began to shake and sob too. And in the middle of them, with
filthy body, matted hair, and unwiped nose, Ralph wept for the end of
innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the
true, wise friend called Piggy.
The officer, surrounded by these noises, was moved and a little
embarrassed. He turned away to give them time to pull themselves together;
and waited, allowing his eyes to rest on the trim cruiser in the distance.
Interview with William Golding1
JAMES KEATING
Purdue University; May 10, 1962
Question: It has often been said that wars are caused by the
dictatorial few. Do you feel this to be so, or do you think anyone given the
power is capable of such inhuman atrocity?
Answer: Well, I think wars are much more complicated than that. Some of
them have been caused by a few. On the other hand if some of them are surely
the bursting of some vicious growth, almost, in civilization, then who knows
who applies the lancer to it? There's all the difference in the world
between the wars of 1917-the Communist Revolution-on the one hand, and the
wars of Genghis Khan on the other, isn't there?
Q.: Yes. Obviously, in Lord of the Flies society plays little part in
determining the corruption and violence in man. You've said this is true in
society, that it does play a minor role, but do you feel that there are
societies that will enhance the possibility of man becoming good? And are we
working toward this in democracy?
A.: By instinct and training, and by birth and by position on the face
of the globe, I'm pretty well bound to subscribe to a democratic doctrine,
am I not? This is so deeply woven into the way we live, or at least the way
we live at home in England, that I don't suppose one really questions it
much. I think I would say democracy is moving in the right
1.This interview is printed here by permission of William Golding and
James Keating. (c) 1964 by James Keating and William Golding.
direction, or the democratic way is the way in which to move; equally,
it seems to me that a democracy has inherent weaknesses in it-built-in
weaknesses. You can't give people freedom without weakening society as an
implement of war, if you like, and so this is very much like a sheep among
wolves. It's not a question with me as to whether democracy is the right way
so much, as to whether democracy can survive and remain what it is. Every
time democracy pulls itself together and says, "Well, now I'm being
threatened by a totalitarian regime," the first thing it has to do is give
up some of its own principles. In England during the Second World War we had
to give up a tremendous number of principles in order to achieve the one
pointed unity which could possibly withstand Hitler. It's possible to look
at the question in this way and say, "Is the remedy not as bad as the
disease?" I don't know.
Q.: Well, the innocence in man, for example, that you bring out among
the boys in this novel, would you say it was an inherent kind of thing which
materializes, or is it a thing from without which is taken on during a
transitional process from innocence to non-innocence? Are the boys innocent
of themselves or are they innocent of evil from without and evil of others?
A.: They're innocent of their own natures. They don't understand their
own natures and therefore, when they get to this island, they can look
forward to a bright future, because they don't understand the things that
threaten it. This seems to me to be innocence; I suppose you could almost
equate it with ignorance of men's basic attributes, and this is inevitable
with anything which is born and begins to grow up. Obviously, it doesn't
understand its own nature.
Q.: Then it's more a combination of innocence of their own and other's
attributes?
A.: Yes. I think, quite simply, that they don't understand what beasts
there are in the human psyche which have to be curbed. They're too young to
look ahead and really put the curbs on their own nature and implement them,
because giving way to these beasts is always a pleasure, in some ways, and
so their society breaks down. Of course, on the other hand, in an adult
society it is possible society will not break down. It may be that we can
put sufficient curbs on our own natures to prevent it from breaking down. We
may have the very common sense to say that if we have atom bombs and so
on-H-bombs-well, we cannot possibly use these things.
Now that is, in a sense, the lowest possible bit of common
sense-obviously we can't-but you know as well as I do that there is a large
chance that those weapons will be used and we'll be done for. I think that
democratic attitude of voluntary curbs put on one's own nature is the only
possible way for humanity, but I wouldn't like to say that it's going to
work out, or survive.
Q.: You recently stated your belief that humanity would either be
saved, or save itself. Is that correct?
A.: Yes, but here again this is because I'm basically an optimist.
Intellectually I can see man's balance is about fifty-fifty, and his chances
of blowing himself up are about one to one. I can't see this any way but
intellectually. I'm just emotionally unable to believe that he will do this.
This means that I am by nature an optimist and by intellectual conviction a
pessimist, I suppose.
Q.: The reason I posed that comment was because in your published notes
in Lord of the Flies . . .
A.: They aren't my notes.
Q.: I'm sorry. I thought Mr. Epstein2 quoted you.
A.: Did he?
Q.: In the summation . . .
A.: Oh, yes.
Q.: In the end the question is, who will rescue the adult and his
cruiser? This seems to me a little fatalistic; it conveys the notion that
there isn't really any hope.
A.: Yes, but there again you can take . . . there are two answers here;
I think they are both valid answers. The first one is the one I made before,
and that is that the quotation there is what I said is intellectual
fatalism. It's making the thing a sort of series of Chinese boxes, one
inside of the Other. The other thing is to say that as the fabulist is
always
2.E. L. Epstein, "Notes on Lord of the Flies" reprinted below, p.
277.-Eds.
a moralist, he is always overstating his case, because he has a point
he wishes to drive home. I would prefer to say if you don't curb yourself,
then this is what will happen to you.
Q.: Again, in Lord of the Flies, I noticed a very definite relationship
between Simon and his brutal death and Christ and his crucifixion. Would you
care to discuss this, or give any omniscient judgment?
A.: Well, I can't give an omniscient judgment. I can only say what I
intended. First you've got to remember I haven t read this book for ten
years, so I may be a bit off. I intended a Christ figure in the novel,
because Christ figures occur in humanity, really, but I couldn't have the
full picture, or as near as full a possible picture of human potentiality,
unless one was potentially a Christ figure. So Simon is the little boy who
goes off into the bushes to pray. He is the only one to take any notice of
the little 'uns-who actually hands them food, gets food from places where
they can't reach it and hands it down to them. He is the one who is tempted
of the devil: he has this interview with the pig's head on the stick, with
Beelzebub, or Satan, the devil, whatever you'd like to call it, and the
devil says, "Clear off, you're not wanted. Just go back to the others. We'll
forget the whole thing."
Well, this is, of course, the perennial temptation to the saint, as I
conceive it, to just go and be like ordinary men and let the whole thing
slide. Instead of that, Simon goes up the hill and takes away from the
island, removes, discovers what this dead hand of history is that's over
them, undoes the threads so that the wind can blow this dead thing away from
the island, and then when he tries to take the good news back to ordinary
human society, he's crucified for it. This is as far as I was able to find a
Christ parallel, you see.3
Q.: You mentioned that you couldn't give any omniscient judgment, and
you've earlier said that an author cannot really say, after he has written a
work, what he has given from himself or created.4 What do you
feel the role of the
4.For a further discussion of the role of Simon, see Donald R.
Spangler, "Simon," p. 211 in this volume.-Eds.
5. Compare Gelding's remarks here with his statements in the interview
with Frank Kermode, p. 199 in this volume.-Eds.
critic is here? Do you feel the critic has the right to bring these
things out?
A.: Well, isn't this really a question without much meaning? Because
whether a critic has rights or not he is going to do these things to a book
which has got out of the author's control, and therefore you might just as
well ask whether a man has a right to five fingers on each hand. This is a
thing that happens. Are you really meaning do I think the critic has, by his
nature or by his training, a better chance of saying what's in this book
than the author has? Is that at all it?
Q.: Yes, that's mainly it. As an artist, do you feel the critics are
justified?
A.: Some of them. As a practical matter some of them say things which I
agree with and some say things which I don t agree with. I don't see there's
much generalization that can be made here. The critic has as much right as
any man to get what he can out of a book, and I would say that I think some
critics that I've read have been extremely perceptive -or else I've been
very lucky-in that they've seemed to put their fingers on certain things
which I had deliberately intended and which I would have thought were rather
subtle, and they have contrived to get hold of these. Equally, I would have
to say that some critics seem to me to be miles off beam.
Q.: Well, perhaps Mr. Gindin5 was a little off beam in his
article which discusses your use of gimmicks. He mentions the saving of the
boys as a gimmick that didn't quite fulfill the manifestations that were
opened in the book ... it didn't resolve diem, I should think, as well as he
would have liked. Do you feel this is justifiable criticism?
A.: I've been haunted by that word, "gimmick," ever since I used it in
an interview explaining that I liked a sharp reversal at the end which would
show the book in an entirely different light so that the reader would
presumably be forced to rethink the book, which seems to me a useful thing
to do. I don't know, in that event, whether the saving
5.James Gindin, " 'Gimmick' and Metaphor in the Novels of William
Golding," Modern Fiction Studies, 6 (Summer, 1960), 145-152.-Eds.
of the boys at the end is a gimmick or not. The reason for that
particular ending was twofold. First I originally conceived the book as the
change from innocence-which is ignorance of self-to a tragic knowledge. If
my boys hadn't been saved, I couldn't-at that time, at any rate-see any way
of getting some one of them to the point where he would have this tragic
knowledge. He would be dead. If I'd gone on to the death of Ralph, Ralph
would never have had time to understand what had happened to him, so I
deliberately saved him so that at this moment he could see -look back over
what's happened-and weep for the end of i